THE GREAT DEBATE

WALLACE FARD MUHAMMAD

vs

ALBERT EINSTEIN

EDITOR'S NOTE: The following
interview is reprinted from a little book titled,
"RELIGION IN BRIEF Station W.C.N.B.,
Detroit, Michigan 1933 'Wallace Fard
Muhammad vs Albert Einstein'" that was
obtained by Muhammad Speaks in early 1997.
There was no author, no address and no
copyright to obtain information on how to
acquire additional copies or to obtain
permission to reprint the material. There was
not even a price listed on the book.

The only information , printed on the cover
of this book, as to who was responsible for
this wonderfully historic work was "@ 1996
Malik Publishing Inc."

We wanted to share this information
with our readers and say THANK
YOU TO MALIK
PUBLISHING INC. for this
treasure you have shared with all of us.

Muhammad Speaks has no concrete
proof that this work is authentic. We
have researched tirelessly since
receiving this book in early March,
1997 to try to find out whether this
interview actually did take place.

During our research we checked
microfilm for the Detroit News and
Detroit Free Press for a listing of
W.C.N.B. radio station and found
nothing. Historians informed us,
however, that Black radio stations
and/or programs were probably not
listed in the Detroit News and Free
Press in 1933.

We found during our research, that
the only kinds of radio programs Black
people were allowed to speak (not sing)
on in Detroit in 1933 were religious
ones. In confirming the historians'
guess, we found that in 1933, many
buildings, including 3408 Hastings
Street, (the building that Messenger
Elijah Muhammad and the Saviour
taught Islam in) that were occupied by
Black people, at that time, were either
not listed in the "City of Detroit
Directory: or listed as "vacant".

So we decided to try to find out
whether or not Albert Einstein was in
Detroit at any time in 1933. And if so,
would he have made an appearance on
a Black religious radio program.

We found that Einstein did visit
Michigan in 1933, but according to a
librarian in the History and Travels
department of the Detroit Public
Library "since his travel to Detroit may
not have been significant enough, his
stay may not have been recorded at
all."

We narrowed it down that the
interview would have to had taken
place somtime between January 1 and
May 26, as we know that Messenger
Elijah Muhammad taught us that The
Saviour left Detroit on May 26, 1933.
And according to the Tuesday, January
10, 1933 edition of The New York
Times, Albert Einstein was in Los
Angeles, California on January 9, 1933
to visit the California Institute of
Technology.

The book, Einstein in America
(page 7) says, "Einstein was in
Pasadena on January 30, 1933." And
that "He remained in Pasadena until the
middle of March, 1933."

In studying the life of Mr. Einstein,
who deemed himself "sympathetic" to
blacks, yes he might have appeared on
a black religious radio show.

Page 219 of the book Einstein in
America reads Einstein was more
frequently critical of various aspects of
American society in his later years that
he was in the period before 1945. He
felt that the most offensive aspect of
life in the United States was the unjust
treatment of its black citizens. The
"worst disease" in American society
Einstein once wrote, is "the treatment
of the Negro..."

The book also states that "In the late
1930's Einstein...became friends of
Marian Anderson (the Black woman
singer of Negro Spirituals)" and that
Anderson stayed with Einstein and his
wife whenever she sang in Princeton.

While studying the language of Mr.
Einstein, we found in the book The
Drama of Albert Einstein, by
Antonia Vallentine, on page 102: "The
practicing Jews wanted to know
whether he was really one of them, and
as this was America, where matters of
conscience are made public, a New
York rabbi cabled to him in advance as
though examining his credentials: "Do
you believe in God?" Einstein cabled
back this truthful and brief reply: 'I
believe in Spinoza's God...'"

The sister who passed this little book
("Wallace Fard Muhammad vs
Albert Einstein") on to Muhammad
Speaks told us that the young man
(whose name she did not remember)
told her that it was taken from an old
phongraph recording owned by a
90-year-old brother whose name we
were not able to obtain.

Note: 1440 AM is still an "All Gospel"
Radio Station. The current owners say
that they brought the station from Bell
Broadcasting (a Black-owned
company). The owners of Bell
Broadcasting say that they have no
knowledge of the owners of W.C.N.B.
in Detroit, in 1933.

Muhammad Speaks would be
grateful to anyone with more
information as to the authenticity of this
interview. We will continue our
investigation but until it is proven
otherwise, we accept the following
interview as Truth:

Actual Excerpt taken from station W.C.N.B. in Detroit, 1933. Religion in Brief. --Guest speakers tonight include Mr. Wallace
Fard and world known mathematician, Mr. Albert Einstein.

(Announcer, Mr. Brandon): Gentlemen, it is a great pleasure to have you two here tonight as guest on Religion in Brief. It serves
us here at station W.C.N.B., as well as the public, as a great opportunity to get a chance to probe in activities and lifestyles,
philosophies and religious outlooks of you two gentlemen who are contributing much energy to certain sections of our nation. Mr.
Einstein, to our scientific advancement in the Principles of Relativity; and Mr. Fard to the minority of our nation with what I've
heard you say on many occasions in the past "Knowledge of Self". Mr. Einstein, could you give our listeners a brief run down on
yourself?

(MR. EINSTEIN): Yes, I'd be glad to. First, I'd like to say thank you Mr. Brandon for inviting me on your show tonight. I feel
comfortable and it is a pleasure to be here. At this stage of my work, I am involved in certain experiments, which covers the scope
of "Atomic enlightenment" as well as developments for this country, in case of nuclear warfare. Second, Mr. Brandon, they refer
me as being a scientist, opening up new channels to the principles of relativity. Now I say, my work includes the science of matter
and energy, and of the interaction between the two. Thus, I would rather be known to the world as a theoretical physicist in the
mathematical view of relativity.

(Mr. Brandon): Very interesting. Mr. Fard, could you give the listeners a brief run down on yourself?

(W.F. MUHAMMAD): Salaam-Alaikum. For you, Mr. Brandon, Mr. Einstein and the listeners elsewhere and
abroad. My Attribute is Fard Muhammad Ibn Alfonso. I extend my thanks first to Allah, God, for enabling me to be
here tonight. Your offer, Mr. Brandon, is greatly appreciated by me, may Allah bless you. a little about myself: I am
SON OF MAN, as it is written; Seeking to Save that which was Lost, and Restore again that which has gone astray.

(MR. BRANDON): Thank you gentlemen. We'll be right back in 60 seconds.

(MR. BRANDON): We're back at station W.C.N.B. 1440 on your dial. Religion in Brief. Tonight our guest are Mr. Albert
Einstein and Mr. Wallace, excuse me, Mr. Fard Muhammad. Mr. Muhammad what would you say your complete theory of
religion and Islam is?

(MR. MUHAMMAD): For years now people have been asking me questions about my theory of religion, Truth,
Islam, Allah, etc., etc...People who have attended my lectures throughout Illinois, Michigan and some in L.A...but
you see, Mr. Brandon, 95% of the population have made religion and Truth something permanent, and is religion and
Truth permanent? If it is, then it is continuous, and what is continuous is not Truth. That is the beauty of Truth: It
must be discovered from moment to moment, not remembered. A remembered truth is a dead thing. Truth must be
discovered from moment, because it is living. It is never the same; yet each time you discover it, it is the same. What
is important is not to make a theory of Truth, not to say Truth is permanent in us and all the rest is an invention of
the old who are frightened of both life and death. It is the Skunk Race, who are decaying, and their philosophies have
no validity. The fact is that Truth is Life, and has no permanency. It cannot be taken for granted that you know life.
Your amusement and your thinking process; that dull, repetitive process, is not life, nor Truth, neither religion.

(MR. BRANDON): Mr. Muhammad, I'm sure me, as well as our listeners have a lot of questions concerning that last statement
you made. So let me begin with this: You said Truth is not permanent, nor is it continuous; then how can it be infinite, if it does not
possess those two qualities?

(MR. MUHAMMAD): Life is something to be discovered. You cannot discover it if you have not lost it; if you put
aside the things that you have found. Do an experiment with what I am saying. Put aside your philosophies, your
religion, your customs, you racial taboos, and all the rest of it; for they are not life. If you are caught in those things
you will never discover life; and the function of education (knowledge) surely is to help you discover life all the time.
Now permanent implies continuing in the same state, which is duration, and duration is the time during which
something exists. Now once we...

(MR. EINSTEIN): Excuse me, Mr. Muhammad, may I cut you off for a second?

(MR. MUHAMMAD): Sure, speak.

(MR. EINSTEIN): Before we move into a different topic, please let me ask you this: If certain individuals stored their religions,
philosophies and spiritualism for another's beliefs, because they might not feel sound, is that not a sin to those of a higher nature?

(MR. MUHAMMAD): Those individuals who adopt theosophy, spiritualism, or hypnotism, may possess natures
above some others who eschew their false beliefs, therefore, my contest is not with the individual, but with the false
system. The Blackman here in the so-called wilderness, loves those people of stature. This is why I shall continue to
labor and endure the strong currents of spirituality, the manifestations of which are health, purity, and
self-immulation, must deepen human experience; until the beliefs of material existence are seen to be bold
impositions; and sin, as well as disease, and death, give everlasting place to the scientific demonstration of Truth in
mathematics, and to God, the Perfect Man, Allah.

(MR. BRANDON): We are told that the attainment of Wisdom and Power can only be acquired through study and knowledge.

(MR. MUHAMMAD): Of ourselves.......

(MR. BRANDON): We have seen also that the same laws govern the whole Universe, and that if man can understand some of
the laws governing, as Mr. Muhammad said Himself, the tiniest atom, he will have a clue to those which govern the solar system
to which they belong; but it would be very difficult to believe that our sun was part of an atom in the cell of a solid body.

(MR. EINSTEIN): Some scientists now claim that the outer-shell is denser than the planets that swing through it. So you see, we
must reserve ideas about solidity until we are a little more informed.

(MR. BRANDON): The point that I am trying to make is that through visualizing our vast giant solar system, we can better
understand the intimate relation in which the stars stand to each other.

(MR. EINSTEIN): Don't worry Mr. Brandon. The astrologers make careful calculations of the chemical and spiritual influences
set up be the continual changing of the relative positions of the planets and luminaries (Sun and Moon) which is man. So let us
resolve our arguments concerning that study please.

(MR. BRANDON): Mr. Einstein, there's a word that you are an atheist. Let me ask you this: Do you believe in God?

(MR. EINSTEIN): I believe in Spinoza's god?

(MR. BRANDON): You did say Spinoza's God?

(MR. MUHAMMAD): Yes he did, S.P.I.N.O.Z.A., but you see Mr. Einstein, and Mr. Brandon, Spinoza was a mere
mortal, who was a philosopher in the 17th century. His full name was Baruch De Spinoza. he was a Dutch-Jewish
philosopher who died at the age of 45 (1632-1677). His concept was that the Universe is formed of one substance,
which is God, and the reality of mind and matter are the attributes, and that beings such as us are only changing
shape in our composition. The concept (Spinozaism) is meritless. The whole theory collapses under its own weight of
inaccuracy.

(MR. EINSTEIN): Excuse me Mr. Muhammad, but I am very...what you call cabalistic. I rely not on external experimentation,
but on intellect, logic, and intuition. The logic of theory must stem from an inner coherence, not because external evidence makes it
most logical over other theories.

(MR. BRANDON): Excuses me gentlemen, let me interrupt you two for a second. Mr. Einstein sir, tell me a little of Spinoza.

(MR. EINSTEIN): Though I cannot here expound the philosophy of Spinoza; I can speak briefly on its aspects: Spinoza attempted
to lay the foundation for a new free society, ruled by law, yet also in accord with divine nature. On the one hand, Spinoza
presented religion as a product of imagination; leading to piety. On the other hand, Spinoza held that reason and intuition led a man
to a union with the source of all things, which is called the intellectual love of God. God, he said, is nature. God is whatever truly
lives. In knowing Him we love Him and it is this knowledge of Him which makes man's mind immortal.

(MR. MUHAMMAD): In those days, Mr. Einstein, that was a dangerous doctrine of immortality; and laid Spinoza
open to misunderstanding and invectiveness.

(MR. EINSTEIN): Yet God Himself was ever present in all Spinoza's writings; so much so, that one commentator did aptly called
him a God intoxicated man.

(MR. MUHAMMAD): Your philosophy is just heritage. You are merely an abstraction of Spinoza, and indefinable
expression of a creed, not universal reasoning and intuition as you state, and not a unity factor when understood
completely. It is the illumination of the spiritual understanding which demonstrates the capacity of the soul, not of
material senses, such revelation whatever constitutes and perpetuates harmony, enabling one to do good, but not
evil (thus there is no unity in this intuition) you will...well, not you two, reach the perfect science of self when you are
able to read the human mind. After this manner and discover the error you would destroy.

(MR. BRANDON): Mr. Muhammad, acquaintance with this science, as you say, will enable one to commune more largely with
this spiritual understanding?

(MR. MUHAMMAD): I say it is a science, because it is! One second I referred to spirit as mind. and not like you
two took it. To understand that mind is infinite, not bound by corporeality; not dependent on the ear and eye for
sound or sight, nor upon the muscles and bones for locomotion, is a step forward. The mind science by which we
discern man's nature and existence. This true conception of the Blackman being God destroys the belief of
spiritualism and Spinozaism at is very inception, for without the concession of immaterial personalities called spirits,
Spiritualism has no more basis upon which to hold. Take the little Black Child for instance.......

(MR. BRANDON): Excuse me Mr. Muhammad, we must take a break at this time. We'll be back in sixty seconds.

(MR. BRANDON): We're back and this is Religion in Brief. My name is Keith Brandon your host and tonight we are talking with
Mr. Fard Muhammad, and Mr. Albert Einstein. Mr. Muhammad, while we were taking that break you commented about certain
expressions of the child, or little children, so to speak, and their....

(MR. MUHAMMAD): Excuse me sir, I said the little Black Child.

(MR. BRANDON): Oh, I'm sorry. The little Black Child, and their awareness process which leads up to adulthood.

(MR. EINSTEIN): Excuse me Mr. Brandon, one second Mr. Muhammad, sir, what is the difference between awareness and
sensitivity.

(MR. MUHAMMAD): I wonder if there is any difference. You know, when you ask a question, what is important is
to find out for yourself the truth of the matter and not merely accept what someone else says. So let us find out
together what it is to be aware. When you observe you reactions to what people say to you and how your mind is
always evaluating, judging, comparing, and condensing. This is all part of awareness, which begins on the surface and
then goes deeper and deeper, but for most of you, awareness stops at a certain point. But unalike the Blackman, who
is surely without doubt the True God of the Universe, Whose proper name is Allah, has no point of end to their
awareness. For their brain capacity is 7-1/2 ounces of pure......

(MR. BRANDON): Did you say their brain capacity is 7-1/2 ounces?

(MR. MUHAMMAD): Yes, 7-1/2 ounces. The seven is 'urim', which is Light, the illumination of science, the only fit
preparation for admission to the PRESENCE AND POWER OF THE MOST HIGH. The 1/2 is 'Thummin' (check
you Bible--Exodus and Ezra) which is Extraordinary Perfection, which does not sleep; only alertness; and if you go
into it still more deeply, you will find that there is no division between the person who is aware and the object of
which he is aware. Now what does it mean to be sensitive? To be cognizant of color and form; to be considerate, good
manners, listen attentively, without being bored, to everything that is said. So is there much difference between
sensitivity and awareness? I don't think so.

(MR. BRANDON): In dealing with facts that contradict some of the things you say, would you still say that the Colored man, the
American Negro is truly God?

(MR. MUHAMMAD): The Colored man is your kind, *(pointing to Mr. Einstein), and the only contradiction I've
heard in the last seconds was 'American Negro'. Now the broadest facts array the most false lies against themselves;
for they bring error from undercover. It requires courage to offer truth, courage such as my Brother, Jesus had. You
see the higher Truth lifts her voice, the louder will error scream; until its inarticulate sound is forever silenced in
oblivion.

(MR. EINSTEIN): You mentioned Jesus as your Brother, to my knowledge Jesus was a Jew. And if you view the Jesus'
achievement through materialistic eyes: seeing only an insignificant minority in possession of a little land and a few battalions; this
will seem improbable. It will not seem improbable if a man discards the blinkers of prejudice and views the World not as a 'thing'
but as an 'Idea'! Then we may see that two-thirds of the civilized world is already governed by the ideas of the Jews. The ideas of
Moses, Jesus, Paul, Spinoza, Marx, Frued. Will the World in the next two thousands years embrace the morality of the Torah, the
social justice of the Prophets, the ethics of the Jewish Patriarchs? If so, then in the words of Isaiah; 'There will be Peace! Peace
to him that is far off, and Peace to him that is near'.

(MR. BRANDON): Yes Mr. Muhammad, what Mr. Einstein says I can understand. If Islam is your religion, how can it claim
Jesus as one of its chief Prophets when Jesus was a Christian?

(MR. MUHAMMAD): I do not blame Mr. Einstein for his misled knowledge.For I am aware of the origin of this
knowledge. Jesus was neither Christian nor Islamic. Christianity was not yet born when Jesus walked the earth, and
Islam was not yet named by our Prophet at that time. Jesus taught Love, Freedom of error, Justice in terms of
Equality. This making him the Messiah the people were talking about. This was then the political atmosphere into
which he stepped, when he had chosen to reveal publicly that he was the Messiah. His destination was the Temple.
His aim was to reform some of its practices. Not to destroy them, but reform them; for the Skunk Race still had
another 1,914 years left to rule in their ghettoes and their darkness.

(MR. EINSTEIN): But the darkness was Light enough! If the Christians looked with derision upon the ridiculous ghetto Jews: The
Jews looked with contempt upon those who jeered at them, namely Jesus! As a group they were still the most learned men in the
East, Europe, excuse me....They were the only ethnic group in Europe having Universal Education. Into the ghetto they took with
them their 3,500 years of cultural heritage, their Talmud, Old Testament, which illuminated their bleak physical existence with
intellectual and religious comfort; and the veil of the Jewish women were a sign of the spiritual compensation given by their laws.

(MR. MUHAMMAD): I beg you pardon, Mr. Einstein, but I SPEAK THE TRUTH OF THE ORIGINAL MAN
BEING GOD, hear Me when I say what is right! A veil sir, is a cover, it is a concealment, hiding hypocrisy! The
Jewish women wore veils over their faces in token reverence and submission and in accordance with Pharisaic
notions of the Judaic religion consisting mostly of rites and ceremonies. The motives and affections of a man were of
little value; if he only appeared unto men to fast. The Great Nazarene, AS MEEK AS HE WAS MIGHTY, rebuked
the hypocrite who offered long petitions for blessing upon material methods; but cloaked the crime latent in thought,
which was ready to spring into action and hypocrisy. Allah's Anointed One, Jesus. THE MARTYRDOM OF JESUS
WAS THE CULMINATING SIN OF PHARISAISM. IT RENT THE VEIL OF THE TEMPLE. IT REVEALED THE
FALSE FOUNDATION AND SUPERSTRUCTURE OF THE SUPERFICIAL RELIGION. TORE FROM BIGOTRY
AND SUPERSTITION THEIR COVERING AND OPENED THE SEPULCHRE WITH DIVINE SCIENCE OF
ALLAH.

(MR. BRANDON): Well that concludes our broadcast for today, and I would like to thank both Mr. Einstein, and Mr. Muhammad
for joining us here tonight.

(MR. EINSTEIN): Before we go Mr. Brandon, do I have a second?

(MR. BRANDON): Yes, a second.

(MR. EINSTEIN): Ah, Mr. Muhammad, do you speak Arabic? Would you know how to say my name in Arabic, Mr.
Muhammad?

(MR. MUHAMMAD): Yes, in Arabic you would say Yacub!

(MR. BRANDON): Thank you folks for listening to Religion in Brief on station W.C.N.B. I'm your host, Keith Brandon, and we'll
be back two Sunday's from today. Until then, may the Lord bless you. Good Night.

*Muhammad Speaks does not know how the author knows who The Saviour pointed to

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